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Traveller-digest     Friday, November 26 1999     Volume 1999 : Number 1401<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Skipping & ship cost <BR>
Re: Vargr (Was: Re: Weapons of mass destruction)<BR>
Re: Skipping & ship cost <BR>
Re: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED Skipping & ship cost<BR>
Re: Superpowers<BR>
Re: Traveller Planetary Assaults<BR>
Re: Inevitability of government failure<BR>
Re: Imperial culture<BR>
Re: UNCLASSIFIED Skipping & ship cost<BR>
Re: Skip Tracing<BR>
Re: Superpowers<BR>
Re: Traveller Planetary Assaults<BR>
747s (was Re: Loans and Indentures)<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1399<BR>
Re: YKYBPTMTW:<BR>
Ship cost: How low can you go?<BR>
Re: Skip Tracing<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1399<BR>
Re: 747s (was Re: Loans and Indentures)<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 13:34:33 +0000<BR>
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Skipping & ship cost <BR>
<BR>
Kyle Schuant <kyle3054@yahoo.com> wrote:<BR>
>Michael blasted out from his distilled-curry powered<BR>
>PC:<BR>
>> Absolutely all codes are crackable. However this is<BR>
>> <cue kettle drums> the<BR>
>> future where  such 'codes' could be hideously<BR>
>> complex. <BR>
> Kyle replied:<BR>
>Complex, shomplex. If the damn thing is worth<BR>
>millions, the PCs will make the effort (or maybe my<BR>
>players are just dodgy individuals?) Besides, on those<BR>
>week-long jumps with nothing out the window but swirly<BR>
>grey jump space, what else is there to do?<BR>
<BR>
<rant><BR>
<BR>
WRONG!<BR>
<BR>
There are codes that *cannot* be cracked by any means except<BR>
someone stealing the code book. These codes are in use today<BR>
and I don't mean a "computer the size of the universe<BR>
takes the lifetime of the universe to solve it unless the TL35<BR>
INT 25 math genius who your PCs have as an engineer makes the<BR>
mathematical breakthrough that has stumped the greatest minds<BR>
in the Imperium for a thousand years" type of problem.<BR>
<BR>
I mean a code where the only solution to a four hundred letter<BR>
message is to print out all possible 400 letter messages and<BR>
say "It might be one of these, pick one."<BR>
<BR>
The only limitations on using these methods everywhere,<BR>
is how to transmit the vast code books required,<BR>
how to generate the codes and how do you contact someone<BR>
you don't know using such a code.<BR>
<BR>
Solutions to these problems are being worked on. I don't<BR>
understand but it's "quantum".<BR>
<BR>
</rant><BR>
<BR>
And I'll bet he only needed a 12 on 2d6*...<BR>
<BR>
*adjust according to rules system.<BR>
<BR>
Phil Kitching<BR>
- --<BR>
  http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/<BR>
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.<BR>
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 13:45:27 +0000<BR>
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Vargr (Was: Re: Weapons of mass destruction)<BR>
<BR>
Douglas 'Penguin' Berry sobbed:<BR>
<BR>
>A *small* bit of humor in what are, IMNSHO, the best personal combat rules<BR>
>ever written for Traveller!!  *sob*  Why doesn't anybody mention the<BR>
>grappling rules?  The detailed rules for opening doors?<BR>
<BR>
That's probably because no one has actually seen them yet!<BR>
<BR>
The only detail I can remember from your posts was the statement<BR>
that Penguins would be an example of a non-aerodynamic thrown object.<BR>
Not an aerodynamic one as the poster had suggested.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Phil Kitching<BR>
- --<BR>
  http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/<BR>
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.<BR>
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 09:48:06 -0400<BR>
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca><BR>
Subject: Re: Skipping & ship cost <BR>
<BR>
        There is a *significant* problem with the "shut off the jump-drive<BR>
after expiry date" problem.  It'll kill civillians.  Let me explain.<BR>
        Liner misjumps in the Marches.  100 passengers aboard.  Winds up 36<BR>
parsecs from the nearest banker.  Takes a month to do repairs and get<BR>
jump-worthy again.  Jump-drive shuts down because the banker hasn't been by.<BR>
Everyone is marooned.  Even if they get rescued (misjumped into Zho space<BR>
and a routine patrol finds them and they are repatriated), the bank is going<BR>
to suffer handsomely in the courts over having in pace systems which<BR>
jeapordized the lives of innocent civillians.<BR>
        Sure, the odds are vanishingly small.  Of course, we've seen numbers<BR>
go by on the TML talking about hundreds of thousands of tons of cargo and<BR>
similar numbers of passengers being moved about in the Marches alone per<BR>
year.  That is a *heck* of a lot of vessels jumping, and a resulting *heck*<BR>
of alot of opportunities for these odds to occur.  And, all you need is once.<BR>
<BR>
        --Michel<BR>
<BR>
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-<BR>
	Michel R. Vaillancourt	misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca<BR>
				ICQ # 31172292<BR>
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-<BR>
	    NET-City Communications....<BR>
	         Providing "Solutions for the Common Company"<BR>
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-<BR>
	***REMEMBER - Always virus-check your emails ***<BR>
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 07:40:58 -0700<BR>
From: cos 90 <cos90@powersurfr.com><BR>
Subject: Re: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED Skipping & ship cost<BR>
<BR>
>Now you could steal the code book, copy it and then put it back...<BR>
>That would be an interesting scenario.<BR>
<BR>
Thanks! I think I'll use it in my own Traveller game, if you don't mind.<BR>
Or even if you *do* mind. :-D   This is the campaign where the PCs are<BR>
members of a covert Imperial intelligence service.<BR>
<BR>
"Your mission, should you choose to accept it, is to infiltrate the<BR>
command post of the Evil Dictator, steal his codebook, make a copy of<BR>
it, then replace the codebook -- all without anyone's knowledge. Should<BR>
any of your force be caught or killed, the Emperor will disavow any <BR>
knowledge of your activities. This planet will self-destruct in five<BR>
seconds."<BR>
<BR>
- -- g<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
     Glenn St-Germain  Edmonton, Alberta, Canada <BR>
cos90@powersurfr.com  http://plaza.powersurfr.com/glenn<BR>
        "There is no longer any normal to be"<BR>
                                 -- Gary Numan<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 09:47:06 -0500<BR>
From: Ethan Henry <egh@klg.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Superpowers<BR>
<BR>
"Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz> wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> There are not, and have never been, enough nuclear weapons on the planet to<BR>
> completely wipe out even a single moderate sized country , say France, let<BR>
> alone the entire world.<BR>
<BR>
Well, Frank, I don't know if that's the point...<BR>
<BR>
If we imagine a hypothetical situation where you're approached by someone who<BR>
you know for absolutely certain can beat the living hell out of you, who has<BR>
a bat and says<BR>
<BR>
 "I'm going to break every bone in your body"<BR>
<BR>
Are you going to tell him that it's not possible to break _every_ bone<BR>
and that chances are you'll still be left with most of your soft tissues<BR>
and internal organs intact?<BR>
<BR>
My personal reaction would be to accept his thesis and ponder its finer<BR>
points from a bit further away. <BR>
<BR>
The point is that it's not something we ever want to even try to <BR>
verify empirically, so debating it is kind of irrelevant.<BR>
- --<BR>
Ethan Henry                                        egh@klg.com<BR>
Java Evangelist, KL Group                   http://www.klg.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 07:43:45<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller Planetary Assaults<BR>
<BR>
At 10:28 PM 11/21/1999 -0600, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
(I'm back after working the dreaded Thanksgiving Rush, and can now think<BR>
coherently again)<BR>
<BR>
>Way bother grabbing the starport at all? If commercial starships can land<BR>
>at a type X starport (AKA a big empty field) than a combat lander should be<BR>
>able to. <BR>
<BR>
Big empty fields are also nice places to fire meson guns into, or to drop<BR>
nukes on.  Grabbing the downport not only gives you a nice place to land<BR>
the *huge* transports the Army uses (wait 'til y'all see these puppies!)<BR>
but also convenient refueling, repair, communication and sensor facilities.<BR>
<BR>
>So, for a planetary assault you could drop a brigade or two in a deserted<BR>
>spot. They grab a large enough area for your combat engineers or seabees to<BR>
>build a new starport. The new starport lets you land troops in a secure<BR>
>area while the people on the planet are busy re-routing their troops to an<BR>
>area they were not prepared to defend. If you are not willing to bombard<BR>
>high value targets, well, the local troops will be coming to you so you can<BR>
>hit them in a low value area.<BR>
<BR>
This will probably happen in many cases, but the Imperial War plan is to<BR>
overwhelm a single point with massive force.  A entire Marine Regiment,<BR>
supported by orbital fire and fighters, is going to be hard to stop.<BR>
<BR>
>And if the locals don't come out to play? Grap the rest of the planet and<BR>
>starve them out. (What tech level does weather control become practical?)<BR>
><BR>
>Granted, this won't work with a world with a high enough pop. A world with<BR>
>a population greater than maybe 7 or so, you will probably end up having to<BR>
>hit at least  some of the population centers hard. This might start out<BR>
>with EMP bursts and escalate (clean airbursts to burn soft targets) if the<BR>
>locals didn't surrender.<BR>
<BR>
The only worlds the Imperium really worries about are those with over one<BR>
million inhabitants.  Below that, just move in and garrison the place.  The<BR>
Imperium also has a policy of *not* using WoMD unless there is no other<BR>
option.  In almost every case it is easier to keep pouring troops in than<BR>
earn the hatred of the locals for flattening cities.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html<BR>
Inquisitor Maximus, Reformed Canon Church of Sylea<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 11:06:47 -0500 (EST)<BR>
From: Kenji Schwarz <schwarz@fas.harvard.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Inevitability of government failure<BR>
<BR>
On Thu, 25 Nov 1999, Glenn M. Goffin wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> That's a good question.  One can fairly argue that China had the same<BR>
> government from the time Qin consolidated power in the central part of<BR>
> the region about 450 BCE (I think I have the date close to correct)<BR>
> until 1949.  While dynasties holding the throne changed at various<BR>
> times, the central functions of government -- bureaucracy, education,<BR>
> military, religious rites -- continued more or less normally.  Even the<BR>
> Mongols simply became Chinese emperors after a generation.  <BR>
<BR>
One can make this argument only by ignoring everything about the<BR>
governments themselves.  (Qin consolidated power in -221 or -222 or<BR>
something, BTW).  The infamous "examination system" alone changed<BR>
drastically; how it operated, and its underlying assumptions, in the Ming<BR>
or Qing would have been unrecognizable to someone from the Tang, let alone<BR>
the Han.  The central functions of government were in a constant state of<BR>
reinvention.  That's *why* there's big fat sections in each of the<BR>
dynastic histories (plus piles of adjunct handbooks) dealing with<BR>
governmental institutions and procedures; they kept changing out from<BR>
underneath 'em.  Some key symbols and fragments of ideology persisted, or<BR>
more accurately kept resurfacing and disappearing, but once you start to<BR>
really look at it, there wasn't a hell of a lot.  Less continuity than you<BR>
could find, say, in political philosophy & symbolism between the western<BR>
Roman empire and 18th century western Europe.<BR>
<BR>
(It's worth keeping in mind that the "Chinese empire" had some sizeable<BR>
gaps, between the Han and the Sui, the Tang and the Song, the Song and the<BR>
Yuan.  Not to mention the long periods where official dynasties still, on<BR>
the books, in power, had lost control over large sections of territory, in<BR>
which rival governments ("non-orthodox dynasties") existed.)<BR>
<BR>
> One can even argue that the communists, too, just became Chinese<BR>
> emperors, but I don't want to get into a flame war with the Marxists on<BR>
> the list.<BR>
<BR>
Because we can destroy all life on earth?  Well, anyway, I'll try just to<BR>
be a flaming retard, then.  If all you mean by "Chinese emperor" is "held<BR>
central and local power over the area traditionally called 'China'", then<BR>
sure.  THe structure of government power and operations is radically<BR>
different from anything that came before it.<BR>
<BR>
Kenji<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 11:08:39 -0500 (EST)<BR>
From: Kenji Schwarz <schwarz@fas.harvard.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Imperial culture<BR>
<BR>
On Fri, 26 Nov 1999, Alan Bradley wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> > From: Steven Hudson<BR>
> >   More simply, it could just be that Anatolia is home to (a) certain <BR>
> > organization(s) that knows many things, most certainly including<BR>
> > Secrets Sophonts Were Not Mean To Know. Of course, such outlandish<BR>
> > theories are always discredited.<BR>
> > <BR>
> >   But they would be of course, wouldn't they?   <fnord><BR>
> <BR>
> So, did the descendants of the Vilani survey team move to Anatolia after<BR>
> the fall of Ninevah, or after the Persians rolled the Babylonians?<BR>
<BR>
Much earlier.  Gudea was a rearguard bureaucrat whose job was to distract<BR>
attention from the removal of the Unspeakable Procedure to central<BR>
Anatolia, where the Vilani refugees disguised themselves as "Hittites" and<BR>
subjected the region to endless management retreats and productivity<BR>
seminars.<BR>
<BR>
Kenji<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 09:21:52 -0700 (MST)<BR>
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU><BR>
Subject: Re: UNCLASSIFIED Skipping & ship cost<BR>
<BR>
On Fri, 26 Nov 1999, Mike Smith wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> > I don't imagine the banks loading up their 'how to prevent a skip'<BR>
> computer<BR>
> > hardware/software with substandard or easily bustable codes. That would be<BR>
> > stoopid. Given the vast amount of monies invested, there would have to be<BR>
> a<BR>
> > way to prevent skipping. And given that communication is limited to jump,<BR>
> > and a vessel could jump anywhere, then that prevention would have to be on<BR>
> > the ship itself. Especially as the collateral for the loan is usually the<BR>
> > ship itself for small time merchants.<BR>
> <BR>
> <non-lurker mode><BR>
> <BR>
> Adventure idea... some rogue bank decides to extend your ship loan<BR>
> indefinately 'cause you pissed them off by attempting to pay it faster than<BR>
> they want you to (interest and all that)... you have to break into the<BR>
> *bank* to get the system for recoding your ship... (hey, don't break the<BR>
> codes, go to the source!)<BR>
> <BR>
> </non-lurker mode><BR>
<BR>
Adventure answer:<BR>
<BR>
PC's walk into local MOJ office..."I know where there is a nest of<BR>
pirates...they're trying to steal _our_ ship!" and gives location of said<BR>
rogue bank.<BR>
<BR>
A few platoons of Imperial Auditors land and persuade said bank from ding<BR>
that.<BR>
<BR>
That's a DIRECT interference with interstellar trade, and the IMOJ is<BR>
going to be _quite_ interested in them for that. <BR>
<BR>
Of course a evil sadistic ^H^H^H^H^H good GM will allow a few NPC<BR>
'executives' of such a bank, who are always identified with their<BR>
nicknames in quotes in the news stories, to get away. Now the PC's spend a<BR>
lot of time looking over their shoulders.<BR>
<BR>
Bruce Johnson<BR>
University of Arizona<BR>
College of Pharmacy<BR>
Information Technology Group<BR>
<BR>
Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 11:49:50 -0500<BR>
From: Ethan Henry <egh@klg.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Skip Tracing<BR>
<BR>
shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> Also, rather than find a world with no usable metal deposits, they just<BR>
> did sensor sweeps and any time they found a concentration of metal<BR>
> above a certain size, they'd drop an ortillery round on it.<BR>
<BR>
Why? Who cares? If the prisoners are alone on the world, then who<BR>
cares what they build? besides, if future prisoners are anything like<BR>
modern prisoners, they don't come from a highly educated background<BR>
(one of the reasons they're criminals in the first place...). I really<BR>
doubt that even given a gigantic hunk of pure iron ore sitting right<BR>
out in a field that they'd get much above a stone age existance.<BR>
<BR>
There may be some assumptions that I'm missing out on though.<BR>
<BR>
I think the problem is that the average sci-fi writer (and Leonard)<BR>
pictures a planet full of criminals who have the amazing breadth<BR>
and depth of knowledge... of a science fiction writer (or Leonard).<BR>
<BR>
I'm not saying criminals are dumb, but they've put most of their<BR>
energy toward developing skills other than ore smelting and <BR>
metallurgy.<BR>
<BR>
> I think there were regular drops of vitamin mineral supplements, and<BR>
> minimal medical supplies, too. For all the goos a plastic crate and a<BR>
> parachute did the prisoners as "raw materials".<BR>
<BR>
On even a semi-garden world the local flora is going to <BR>
have more than enough of what prisoners can make use of.<BR>
<BR>
If they're on the equivalent of a rockball, the whole premise <BR>
breaks down for me as I don't see how the prisoners are going<BR>
to get that whole O2-CO2 thing working.<BR>
<BR>
> They managed to escape. And no, I don't remember how.<BR>
<BR>
Must have been a load of murderous Poul Andersons & Leonard Ericksons.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Ethan Henry                                        egh@klg.com<BR>
Java Evangelist, KL Group                   http://www.klg.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 12:11:04 -0500<BR>
From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Superpowers<BR>
<BR>
>I'm sorry Glenn, but you're completely wrong on this one.<BR>
><BR>
>There are not, and have never been, enough nuclear weapons on the planet to<BR>
>completely wipe out even a single moderate sized country , say France, let<BR>
>alone the entire world.<BR>
><BR>
        [SINP]<BR>
><BR>
>I suggest you actually examine the evidence in future before repeating this<BR>
>sort of popular bull.<BR>
><BR>
>Frankie.<BR>
<BR>
I think that you underestimate the level of possible damage. Let's talk EMP<BR>
damage for starters. If you don't think the death toll in North America and<BR>
Europe wouldn't be horrendous I think that you're mistaken. Hundreds of<BR>
millions would die just because the infrastructure gacked when all of the<BR>
electronics stopped working. Without the infrastructure the countries would<BR>
cease to exist. There would be starvation, epidemic, riots, looting, etc.<BR>
At the height of the cold war multiple warheads were armed at almost every<BR>
section of the American continent.  Almost every state had more than one<BR>
target, even if only military assets were hit. The balance of the U.S.<BR>
population lives in these areas. The separated enclaves that might survive<BR>
would no longer be a civilization, at least not a 20th century tech level<BR>
civilization.<BR>
This ignores the general level of radioactive fallout that would exist. The<BR>
accident in Chernobyl result in a measurable increase in radionucleides in<BR>
the milk of dairy cows as far away as Norway. The probable levels of<BR>
radiation from the blasts and level of contamination from the fallout would<BR>
make the lives of the survivors very unpleasant.<BR>
Even just a couple of years of nuclear winter would result in a huge number<BR>
of deaths. We are a society where ever small numbers of people raise the<BR>
food for the population as a whole. The loss of the ability to do this alone<BR>
would result in large numbers of deaths.<BR>
<BR>
Terry C<BR>
All that is Gold does not glitter<BR>
Not all who travel are lost<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 08:19:01<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller Planetary Assaults<BR>
<BR>
At 07:43 AM 11/26/1999, I wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>The only worlds the Imperium really worries about are those with over one<BR>
>million inhabitants.  Below that, just move in and garrison the place.  The<BR>
>Imperium also has a policy of *not* using WoMD unless there is no other<BR>
>option.  In almost every case it is easier to keep pouring troops in than<BR>
>earn the hatred of the locals for flattening cities.<BR>
<BR>
Oops, almost forgot.  I'm also writing this policy in to give the Army and<BR>
Marines a role.  It's just to easy to just smack things from orbit.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 13:20:15 EST<BR>
From: GypsyComet@aol.com<BR>
Subject: 747s (was Re: Loans and Indentures)<BR>
<BR>
Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com> posits:<BR>
<BR>
>At a guess, even a 747 must be 50dT.<BR>
<BR>
 The current US Space Shuttle is pretty close in size to a Traveller Shuttle <BR>
(ie. 95 DTons), so a little extrapolation puts a 747 (used to carry the <BR>
Shuttle around) firmly in the 180+ DTon range.<BR>
<BR>
GC<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 13:33:01 EST<BR>
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1399<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 99-11-26 00:58:03 EST, you write:<BR>
<BR>
<< >Obviously some of the early Terran surveyors to rimward had very odd <BR>
senses<BR>
 >of humor.<BR>
 <BR>
 Then there's a world in the Albadawi Subsector, Solomani Rim 0330,<BR>
 that I wonder about. Specifically, if a native of this world would<BR>
 travel to Terra, would they become super-strong and invulnerable?<BR>
 And when is the planet going to explode? I am, of course, speaking<BR>
 of Krypton...  >><BR>
<BR>
We did remember to put in Twylo somewhere, didn't we? Anybody remember the <BR>
reference for that one? Extra points if you can name the actor (and the <BR>
nutmeat) involved. . .<BR>
<BR>
LKW<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 10:51:59 -0800<BR>
From: Kristian Miller <travellerne@3rd-imperium.com><BR>
Subject: Re: YKYBPTMTW:<BR>
<BR>
What area of the world would this be in?<BR>
<BR>
Kristian<BR>
<BR>
"David J. Golden" wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> At 10:16 PM 11/24/99 PST, you wrote:<BR>
> >In mail you write:<BR>
> ><BR>
> >> Timothy Collinson wrote:<BR>
> >>> >You Know You've Been Playing Too Much Traveller When:<BR>
> >>> Or you walk across some hexagonal paving stones and expect to<BR>
> take a<BR>
> >>> week getting from one to another.<BR>
> >><BR>
> >> But you might be able to move more than one step at a time... :-)<BR>
> ><BR>
> >I recall a time in the late 70s or eaerly 80s when a car dealership<BR>
> >vacated their building downtown. For a long time they couldn't find<BR>
> >anybody to rent it, and we joked about getting a bunch of gamers<BR>
> >together and renting it.<BR>
> ><BR>
> >You see, the first floor was almost entirely open, and tiled with 1"<BR>
> >white ceramic *hex* tiles. Yeah, a hex map about 200 feet square.<BR>
> ><BR>
> >Let's see. If I haven't dropped a decimal, that's 2400 hexes across.<BR>
> <BR>
>         Anybody up for a realistic game of Brilliant Lances? With maybe some<BR>
> 'blind' rules?<BR>
> <BR>
> -- Chaos reigns within.<BR>
>       Reflect, repent, and reboot.<BR>
>    Order shall return.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 12:47:42 -0600<BR>
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net><BR>
Subject: Ship cost: How low can you go?<BR>
<BR>
On 11/26/99 at 01:11 PM,  Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com> said:<BR>
<BR>
>>So, let's limit our discussion to civilian ships.  For<BR>
>>*merchant ships* just how low can we reasonably go and not wreak<BR>
>>the feel of the game?<BR>
<BR>
>>20,000 per dton?<BR>
>>10,000 per dton?<BR>
<BR>
>>And what systems do we reduce in price to get the<BR>
>>total price down?  <BR>
<BR>
>>Power plant?<BR>
>>Jump Drive?<BR>
>>Sensors?>><BR>
<BR>
>Under T4, ships work out about 100kCr/dT for merchants,<BR>
>500kCr/dT for paramilitary and 1MCr/dT for Military.<BR>
>Fighters and SDBs (not having all that jump fuel)<BR>
>tend to be 2MCr/dT or more.<BR>
<BR>
I know what the *books* say, but that wasn't the question.  The<BR>
question was how low *could* the costs be without wreaking the feel<BR>
of the game. <BR>
<BR>
>>Kyle replied:<BR>
>>Well, IMTU as I've said it's from the old GURPS:<BR>
>>Space, so everything's cheaper... <BR>
<BR>
But not as cheap as Kyle seems to think if you are building the<BR>
standard Traveller PC-class ships.<BR>
<BR>
>>your standard free trader, unarmed, no stealth<BR>
>>ability, just enough engines to get it off largish<BR>
>>earth-type planets, Jump-1, a hull that's internally<BR>
>>tough but not armoured, and staterooms for the PCs,<BR>
>>about a quarter its volume for cargo, that'll set PCs<BR>
>>back, new, 500 kCr. Whereas your military fighter<BR>
<BR>
>That's way too cheap. A book 5 party could probably buy<BR>
>one outright, just from mustering out benefits.<BR>
<BR>
That's also about 1/10th of what I calculated such a ship to cost<BR>
using GURPS:Space.  A 200dt Free Trader type ship, unarmed,<BR>
unarmored, no stealth, 1g/J1, 4 crew/10 passengers cost about 8<BR>
million new, about half that for a serviceable, but old ship.  A PC<BR>
party get into one of them, given a required 10% downpayment.<BR>
<BR>
The above ship works out to 40k per ton new, and down to about 20k<BR>
per ton used.  You could get this by reducing construction costs to<BR>
40% of standard, or for ease of conversion make it 50%.  How does<BR>
that sound to everyone?<BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 12:59:56 -0700 (MST)<BR>
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU><BR>
Subject: Re: Skip Tracing<BR>
<BR>
On Fri, 26 Nov 1999, Ethan Henry wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> There may be some assumptions that I'm missing out on though.<BR>
> <BR>
> I think the problem is that the average sci-fi writer (and Leonard)<BR>
> pictures a planet full of criminals who have the amazing breadth<BR>
> and depth of knowledge... of a science fiction writer (or Leonard).<BR>
> <BR>
> I'm not saying criminals are dumb, but they've put most of their<BR>
> energy toward developing skills other than ore smelting and <BR>
> metallurgy.<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
Hmm, must be november...time for the Traveller <> Real Life rant.;-)<BR>
<BR>
In real life, yes. In real life Traveller wold be dull boring and no fun.<BR>
A real-life depiction of prison is boring, brutish and not very<BR>
interesting. Notice, in the game that started this thread, placing the<BR>
characters on that prison world ended the game.<BR>
<BR>
While this may be acceptable to the particular players in that game (they<BR>
didn't like their characters any more, they were shipping out, got jobs in<BR>
other cities, etc) in general in ongoing roleplaying games it is a BAD<BR>
IDEA to stuff PC's in hopeless situations. _Almost_ hopeless is another<BR>
kettle of fish, but 'You're here, no hope of escape, no hope of parole,<BR>
you die of old age' in a game I wanted to continue would (and has) made me<BR>
look twice before gaming with that person again, at least with them as GM.<BR>
(I had a good friend who lloved to put the PC's in these utterly<BR>
untenable situations: <BR>
<BR>
"You wake up in a cave, things feel weird."<BR>
<BR>
"Weird how?"<BR>
<BR>
"The light is wrong, and gravity doesn't seem to work right."<BR>
<BR>
"We look out the cave"<BR>
<BR>
"As you stand there, a huge portal opens in the air and hordes off demonic<BR>
looking things start pouring out. They are marching toward the cave."<BR>
<BR>
"We try to leave."<BR>
<BR>
"Too late, the vanguard reaches you. You are taken prisoner and marched<BR>
back through the portal."<BR>
<BR>
"Huh?"<BR>
<BR>
"You are lead to a huge, bloody altar, with thousands of dead bodies<BR>
heaped nearby."<BR>
<BR>
"HUH??!!"<BR>
<BR>
"The first of you are lead to the altar, where a goat-thing with huge<BR>
muscular arms splits you in half."<BR>
<BR>
"Ok, lets play something different now...")<BR>
<BR>
What Leonard, (and all those SF writers) are doing is setting up a far<BR>
more cinematic universe, where criminals are evil geniuses (repeat after<BR>
me: "Before I kill you, Mr. Bond..." ;-) Player characters could even<BR>
think about owning ships, let alone run around with battledress, and life<BR>
is interesting enough for people to play escapist games about it.<BR>
<BR>
Bruce Johnson<BR>
University of Arizona<BR>
College of Pharmacy<BR>
Information Technology Group<BR>
<BR>
Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 15:23:21 -0600<BR>
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1399<BR>
<BR>
GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> In a message dated 99-11-26 00:58:03 EST, you write:<BR>
> <BR>
> << >Obviously some of the early Terran surveyors to rimward had very odd<BR>
> senses<BR>
>  >of humor.<BR>
> <BR>
>  Then there's a world in the Albadawi Subsector, Solomani Rim 0330,<BR>
>  that I wonder about. Specifically, if a native of this world would<BR>
>  travel to Terra, would they become super-strong and invulnerable?<BR>
>  And when is the planet going to explode? I am, of course, speaking<BR>
>  of Krypton...  >><BR>
> <BR>
> We did remember to put in Twylo somewhere, didn't we? Anybody remember the<BR>
> reference for that one? Extra points if you can name the actor (and the<BR>
> nutmeat) involved. . .<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
"Dick van Dyke" show, if I recall correctly.  The nutmeat was walnuts.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 21:22:46 GMT<BR>
From: j_pete@bellsouth.net (Pete)<BR>
Subject: Re: 747s (was Re: Loans and Indentures)<BR>
<BR>
On Fri, 26 Nov 1999 13:20:15 EST, GypsyComet@aol.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com> posits:<BR>
><BR>
>>At a guess, even a 747 must be 50dT.<BR>
><BR>
> The current US Space Shuttle is pretty close in size to a Traveller Shuttle <BR>
>(ie. 95 DTons), so a little extrapolation puts a 747 (used to carry the <BR>
>Shuttle around) firmly in the 180+ DTon range.<BR>
<BR>
The maximum take off weight of a 747 is from 315 to 365 metric tons.<BR>
<BR>
================================================================================<BR>
- - Jeff Peterson                                             j_pete@bellsouth.net<BR>
<BR>
"An organization is like a tree full of monkeys,  all on different levels. The <BR>
monkeys on the top look down and all they see are smiling faces, the monkeys <BR>
on the bottom look up and see nothing but assholes."<BR>
                                     - Unknown (If you know, tell me.)<BR>
<BR>
Pete 0609 D258A85-3 S kk- hi++ as+ va++ dr++ so zh- vi+ da++ A833<BR>
GCS V 3.12 d- s:+: a- C+++ UH++$ P-- L+ E-- W++ N++ o-- K- w++++(---)$ !O M-- V-<BR>
PS-- PE++ Y+ PGP t+ 5++ X+ R+ tv+ b+++ DI++ D++ G e+ h--- r+++ y+++<BR>
NOG #74  AirStar Nova 700<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #1401<BR>
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